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Reid and prisons [message #126927] Mon, 29 January 2007 11:27 Go to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
Don't have a great impression of John Reid as he comes across as another of the hatchet 'yes sir, no sir, who next sir?' men Tony Blair brought up in Labour, and who do his dirty work for him. That is implement the long sequence of big brother, authoritarian anti people policies Labour have gone with (it's no accident Blair is pally with the neocons and bushites in the US) while he stands off a safe distance pretending to be an international statesman of significance. Blunkett was another.

Most of these toadies seem so desperate for power that they'll do whatever is needed to curry favour with the big Blur.

That said judging by the succession of Home Office leaks on populist prison and law and order topics it looks like somebody is really out to get Reid. Shortly before that there were articles surfacing talking of him as a credible Labour leadership candidate. (not in my eyes mind you)

Does anybody have any idea what's actually going on? Is the Brown cabal moving to take him out, or could it actually be for real - do people really believe that chucking ever more people into prison (at a time when the prison population is at record levels) makes any sense or contributes one iota to the reduction of crime?

Is Brown really the easy going type he appears to be, or is that only the facade?



[Updated on: Mon, 29 January 2007 11:30]

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Re: Reid and prisons [message #126932 is a reply to message #126927] Mon, 29 January 2007 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
ondablade wrote

.....That is implement the long sequence of big brother, authoritarian anti people policies Labour have gone with....

Just to pick up on this one [accurate] point for now - I don't understand why any elected politician would want this anyway as surely one day in the not too distant future they themselves aren't going to be in power and will be more or less just a 'joe public' like the rest of us (& their children too) so what sense does it make to steer through policies like these Ponder

[Updated on: Mon, 29 January 2007 12:03]

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Re: Reid and prisons [message #126941 is a reply to message #126927] Mon, 29 January 2007 12:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David W is currently offline  David W   United Kingdom
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(6) Moto1 GP Racer
Pretty much agree with all of that Ondablade. I despised Blunkett and I'm going the same way on Reid. He's a Blairite hatchet man that clearly knows his days are numbered as soon as Gordon Brown gets into No.10. The Home Office is rapidly becoming the last bastion of the Gestapo. I used to think my politics were quite right wing until the last 5 or 6 years of this lot!

Saying that, Brown is a thinly disguised Communist and I expect to be taxed back to the dark ages as soon as he's in charge.

[Updated on: Mon, 29 January 2007 12:39]

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Re: Reid and prisons [message #126945 is a reply to message #126941] Mon, 29 January 2007 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbrr3 is currently offline  cbrr3   United Kingdom
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(4) WSS Racer


The Government, it's a disgrace and it's Cabinet members are only in it for the money and nothing else. If they were serious, they would forget the rest of the world, close ranks and look after the population of this small country called the United Kingdom.

These folk take the job knowing it is not a long term engagement and seem to screw the job for everything it's worth knowing that they won't get sacked, just moved to the back of the House for a wee while.

Reid's latest statement, 'Don't judge me on the problems faced by the Home Office, judge me on how I handle the problems'. What an utter joke of a response.

The war in Iraq, it has cost this country billions of pounds, countless number of lives have been lost and are we any safer Scared

Are we .uck!

We could have built and staffed quite a few large hospitals to help the sick, reduced NHS waiting times, prescribed Herceptin and other much needed drugs to those who require them.

Instead we house clowns who call themselves Politicians who waffle about a warmer climate but jump on an aircraft at the first opportunity, say Britain is great but holiday abroad and we pay for it.............................

Not sure who are the bigger fuckin' Muppets, the Politicians or us who pay for 'em.

Rant over
Re: Reid and prisons [message #126947 is a reply to message #126927] Mon, 29 January 2007 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RobGoo is currently offline  RobGoo   United Kingdom
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(19) John Surtees
It's a symptom of the Home Office minister. They seem to have to be tough, or think that they need to be, because of the issues that they deal with.

The media are always looking to make mileage out of immigration, 'law and order', prison or 'paedo' issues. Things that grab headlines without the need for much substance and likely to cause outrage/worry/ripples with the readers. When serial problems arise in these areas, they start sharpening the knives.

Saying that, there's so much positioning and back-stabbing going on in that cabinet that I cant work out out. John Reid seems to take pride in his rotweiler approach to getting results but suspect that allegiencies to Blair will probably be a factor in his downfall under Brown.

It's a scary place - politicians seem to do all this and think it is not apparent to the electorate, yet wonder why there is apathy and fundamental distrust of politics. It's down to the vote not actually making any different or translating to action on the politicians behalf. Too many of their actions are down to their own self interest or the 'party line' or some hidden agenda...
Confused
Re: Reid and prisons [message #126970 is a reply to message #126927] Mon, 29 January 2007 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quazi is currently offline  Quazi   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
I heard him quote today, "you should not be focussing on the mistakes but the way in which I deal with them."

Now forgive me for saying this, but we shouldn't worry about the mess just as long as we know how to use the broom. Yes


That is this government all over, no prevention just find a cure.
Doh
Re: Reid and prisons [message #126973 is a reply to message #126970] Mon, 29 January 2007 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scouser is currently offline  the scouser   United Kingdom
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(13) MotoGP Champion
Quote:

do people really believe that chucking ever more people into prison (at a time when the prison population is at record levels) makes any sense or contributes one iota to the reduction of crime?



I do. While they're in prison they're aren't committing crime. Most re-offend when they get out, which pretty much proves that while they're in there, the rest of us are getting a break from their activities. In a society which has so little regard for the victims of crime, at least jailing the criminal can give a little satisfaction or at least respite, for the victim. Although prison is expensive, set against the cost to society of the offending, it is still a cheaper option than any of the other options. Tagging does not work, period. Community service is a joke. The main problem with prison is that it has ceased to be a punishment; tv, internet, daily newspapers, methadone on tap, comfortable accomodation....some prisoners even earn a good wage. Sentences could be made shorter if jail was a shock, a true hard punishment. Basically, you cannot avoid the obvious; if all the criminals are in jail the streets (and our homes, motorcycles, etc) would be safer.
Re: Reid and prisons [message #126979 is a reply to message #126927] Mon, 29 January 2007 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Triple-Bee   United Kingdom
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(14) Eddie Lawson
Is it just me or is this country on it,s arse Ponder
Re: Reid and prisons [message #126987 is a reply to message #126927] Mon, 29 January 2007 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slaz is currently offline  slaz   United Kingdom
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(21) Valentino Rossi
In simple terms your spot on TB Yes
Re: Reid and prisons [message #127022 is a reply to message #126987] Mon, 29 January 2007 21:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scouser is currently offline  the scouser   United Kingdom
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(13) MotoGP Champion
It isn't just on it's arse, it's gone through the chair, split it's pants, shat itself and it aint getting up anytime soon......
Re: Reid and prisons [message #127068 is a reply to message #127022] Tue, 30 January 2007 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gone2 is currently offline  gone2   Netherlands
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(15) Kenny Roberts
here's something for your consideration.....


TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO, HE IS THE MARICOPA
> > COUNTY SHERIFF( ARIZONA ) AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER
> > AGAIN.
> > These are some of the reasons why:
> >
> > Sheriff Joe Arpaio created the "tent city jail" to save Arizona from
> > spending tens of million of dollars on another expensive prison complex.
> >
> > He has jail meals down to 40 cents a serving and charges the inmates for
> > them.
> >
> > He banned smoking and porno magazines in the jails, and took away their
> > weightlifting equipment and cut off all but "G" rated movies.
> >
> > He says: "they're in jail to pay a debt to society not to build muscles so
> > they can assault innocent people when they leave."
> >
> > He started chain gangs to use the inmates to do free work on county and
> > city projects and save taxpayer's money.
> >
> > Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn't get sued for
> > discrimination.
> >
> > He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order
> > that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again but
> > only allows the Disney channel and the weather channel.
> >
> > When asked why the weather channel he replied: "so these morons will know
> > how hot it's gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs."
> >
> > He cut off coffee because it has zero nutritional value and is therefore
> > a waste of taxpayer money. When the
> > inmates complained, he told them, "This
> > isn't the Ritz/Carlton. If you don't like it, don't come back."
> >
> > He also bought the Newt Gingrich lecture series on US history that he
> > pipes into the jails. When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series
> > by a Democrat, he replied that a democratic lecture series that actually
> > tells
> > the truth for a change would be welcome and that it might even explain
> > why 95% of the inmates were in his jails in the first place.
> >
> > With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees
> > just set a new record for June 2nd), the Associated Press reports: About
> > 2,000 inmates living in a barbed- wire-surrounded tent encampment at the
> > Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their
> > government-issued pink boxer shorts.
> >
> > On Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing pink boxer shorts were chatting in
> > the tents, where temperatures reached 128 degrees. "This is hell. It feels
> > like we live in a furnace," said Ernesto Gonzales, an inmate for 2
> > years with 10 more to go. "It's inhumane."
> >
> > Joe Arpaio, who makes his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna
> > sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. "Criminals should be punished for
> > their crimes - not live in luxury until it's time for parole, only to go out
> > and
> > commit more crimes so they can come back in to live on taxpayers money and
> > enjoy
> > things many taxpayers can't afford to have for themselves."
> >
> > Wednesday he told all the inmates who were complaining of the heat in the
> > tents: "It's between 120 to 130 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are
> > living in tents too, and they have to walk all day in the sun, wearing full
> > battle gear and get shot at, and they have not committed
> > any crimes, so shut your damned mouths!"
> >
> > Way to go, Sheriff! If all prisons were like yours there would be a lot
> > less crime and we would not be in the current position of running out of
> > prison spaces.
> >
> > If you agree, pass this on.
> > If not, just delete it.
> >
> > PS. Unsurprisingly perhaps, Sheriff Joe was just re-elected Sheriff in
> > Maricopa County , Arizona


In case you're wondering, the above does not represent my view of the ideal.

[Updated on: Tue, 30 January 2007 11:57]

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Re: Reid and prisons [message #127073 is a reply to message #126927] Tue, 30 January 2007 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quazi is currently offline  Quazi   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
Now there is some sense. Yes Clap Clap
Re: Reid and prisons [message #127078 is a reply to message #126927] Tue, 30 January 2007 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Triple-Bee   United Kingdom
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(14) Eddie Lawson
He gets my vote Thumbs Up
Re: Reid and prisons [message #127160 is a reply to message #127078] Tue, 30 January 2007 22:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scouser is currently offline  the scouser   United Kingdom
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(13) MotoGP Champion
I've just found God ... turns out he's a Sheriff in Arizona smile
Re: Reid and prisons [message #127162 is a reply to message #127160] Tue, 30 January 2007 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ginganinga is currently offline  ginganinga   United Kingdom
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(17) Kevin Schwantz
my type of bloke Thumbs Up , and it all makes sense to me

Ginga smile
Re: Reid and prisons [message #127192 is a reply to message #126927] Wed, 31 January 2007 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
That sheriffs got the right idea, now whose going to forward it to Tony Naughty
Re: Reid and prisons [message #127208 is a reply to message #127192] Wed, 31 January 2007 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scouser is currently offline  the scouser   United Kingdom
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(13) MotoGP Champion

Sheriff Joe Arpaio[ 7 votes ]
1. The Man 7 / 100%
2. Crackpot 0 / 0%

^^^ what like this? Naughty Kerm


Kermy, could we have a poll, pretty please, on the Sheriff deal, is he The Man or is he a crackpot?

[Updated on: Wed, 31 January 2007 15:07] by Moderator

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Re: Reid and prisons [message #127408 is a reply to message #127208] Fri, 02 February 2007 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
'Ole Wyatt probably has the right idea. In as much as it makes sense to run a jail on practical as opposed to politically correct lines or alternatively oppressive lines.

It's a separate issue to how you see jail in the broad scheme of things - what part you think it plays. And yet the same considerations apply.

Is jail about rehabilitation and creating positive change in people, or is it simply a means of mopping up and putting out of sight the dangerous and the consequences of societal failure? If we take it as is claimed as being a part of the former, then where exactly does it fit in?

Right now we seem to get the worst of all worlds. It's used as a form of insitutionalised revenge which plays to populist opinion, yet it's run on highly impracticable and ruinously expensive lines to appease the bureaucratic self interests and the politically correct. But the system makes no meaningful attempt to rehabilitate, is not part of any meaningful societal strategy and doesn't give a flying F about the welfare of its inmates.

Seems to me that the Sherriff (provided he's a compassionate and caring man and in the rehabilitation business) might bring some joined up practical thinking to the game. But he'd need the wisdom of Solomon and the cunning of a shithouse rat to pull it off without the vested interest bringing him him down first......

[Updated on: Fri, 02 February 2007 10:44]

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Re: Reid and prisons [message #127414 is a reply to message #127408] Fri, 02 February 2007 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
Know it's bad form to post twice in a row, but back to the bigger political picture. It's very hard to have much faith in the system when you see Blair sail on regardless of payment for questions, failure of his international policy, the future of his party, the needs of the country or anything else other than clinging to power, staying out of jail and frantic attempts to mould his supposed 'legacy' ( RollEyes spare me!!!)

I worry too about these police swoops on 'terrorist plots. They (the plots) are not harmless, and they shouldn't be going on but isolated groups of kids sharing radical videos and playing subversives don't exactly constitute major plots. Conspiracy to murder doesn't either, it's going on in more than a handful of households as we speak, and doesn't rate a mention.

The police don't exactly have a record of inafallibility on this stuff. I wonder if with their heavy handed clomping about and given medias' inevitable hype they are not doing more harm than good - that there's not better ways to deal with the situation.

This, Blair and the topic of this thread all hang together somehow in that they arguably paint a picture of a society that's leaderless, rudderless and being pulled hither and thither by vested interests and lobbies for unwise and impractical causes.

It's kind of worrying that despite being a lame duck that Blair's being allowed to pretend all is well. That lots in politics know this, but are so self interested and uncaring that they are happy to let the limbo continue while they wait for the ideal opening in which to bid for power.

Just how screwed up does it have to get before they will break ranks and accuse the emperor of wearing no clothes. Or more importantly act to show him that he needs to step aside now or face removal...
Re: Reid and prisons [message #127444 is a reply to message #127414] Fri, 02 February 2007 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
the scouser is currently offline  the scouser   United Kingdom
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(13) MotoGP Champion
I disagree with most of what you have said there fella. Rather than launch into an interminable diatribe, I'll focus on one point.

Quote:

But the system makes no meaningful attempt to rehabilitate, is not part of any meaningful societal strategy and doesn't give a flying F about the welfare of its inmates


Prison was never intended to rehabilitate. Nor should it make any attempt to. Prison should have two roles; to punish and to remove criminals from the equation for a measured time.
The punishment aspect is currently compromised by the soft regimes in place; comfy modern accomodation, access to tv, pcs, vocational training and recreation, etc. For many prisoners being in jail is in some ways more comfortable than the life they have been leading. For instance, drug users have recently successfully sued the government and are now entitled to methadone, free on tap, plus thousands of pounds each for abuse of their human rights.
The Arizona Sheriff would have a fit if he inspected one of our prisons.
Secondly, it is a fact that society has respite from the crimes of an individual while that person is behind bars.
Rehabilitation should only start after the prison term.
Prison terms could be much shorter and therefore cost society less money if prison regimes were far stricter. Six months of hard labour with no privileges or a year of living in a hotel with a locked exit door?
Picture this; your daughter has been raped and murdered. You have a right to expect the perpetrator to be punished, and hard, by the state. You have a right not to see him walking down your highstreet anytime soon. And you really don't want to know that prison has been a good, learning experience for him in which he qualified as a computer technician, earnt quite a sum of money, and made several new friends.....
Don't even get me started on the young asian misunderstood bomb hobbyists....

[Updated on: Fri, 02 February 2007 17:05]

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