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Are you religious? [message #279748] Wed, 17 July 2013 13:07 Go to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini

Do you consider yourself religious/believe in a god?[ 19 votes ]
1. Yes 0 / 0%
2. No 19 / 100%

I'm curious as to how many on here are religious to some degree or other or not at all.

Probably wise not to discuss too much unless the vote goes close to 100% on one option so please vote and lets see the results smile

[Updated on: Wed, 17 July 2013 22:05]

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Re: Are you religious? [message #279749 is a reply to message #279748] Wed, 17 July 2013 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SP2 Riley is currently offline  SP2 Riley   United Kingdom
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(19) John Surtees
all bollocks and causes all the fooking wars
Re: Are you religious? [message #279750 is a reply to message #279748] Wed, 17 July 2013 13:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini

How would you describe your belief/religion?[ 21 votes ]
1. Christian - Only really for weddings/funerals but I do believe god/bible 1 / 5%
2. Christian - practising and fairly often attend church 0 / 0%
3. Agnostic - Not sure what to believe 3 / 14%
4. God Fearing - Believe in god but not any particular religion 0 / 0%
5. Atheist - There is no god 16 / 76%
6. Other Religion (Islam/Buddhism/Judaism/Other) 1 / 5%

And a second vote on breaking the above poll down a little bit smile

[Updated on: Wed, 17 July 2013 20:40]

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Re: Are you religious? [message #279769 is a reply to message #279750] Thu, 18 July 2013 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
andy_scouser is currently offline  andy_scouser   United Kingdom
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(16) Barry Sheene
I think it was just a medieval power thing and a way of controlling and exploiting the un-educated minions of society. I like some religions teachings on how to be a 'good person' but thats as far as it goes. Not pointing fingers, but serioulsly, the muslim faith and its teachings are just insane. I spoke to a Beduin in Egypt once, he had just come out of muslim biased university, I questioned the reasons for the way animals where slaughtered in Egypt... He responded with a 'scientifically proven' defence that was pretty much just taken out of the Quaran, thats pretty much the point where i wished him good day and I went on my way. If a religion can brain wash the brightest of a country in to beliefs that just point blank can not be proven in the rest of the world, there is no hope for the future of that country/society. Look at different countries, and bundle them in to the religious groups, then try and find out the outstanding achievements of those groups of countries, the results will stand for themselves. So, where religion is strong, the country society are STILL being held in the dark ages.

Saying all of this, I think Buddhists are very very cool Wink

[Updated on: Thu, 18 July 2013 13:57]

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Re: Are you religious? [message #279776 is a reply to message #279769] Thu, 18 July 2013 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pipe is currently offline  Pipe   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
I guess it's just a fear of death that makes people want to believe that there is something beyond what we know.

For sure we are real and have been created like everything else around us and everything we can see and know about ...... by a phenomenally inconceivable set of events, which ever theory or notion you believe in.

Physics still doesn't have all the answers and why we still all celebrate Christmas and Easter is a complete mistry to me, unless your of that belief.

The earth exists in our solar system aligned in a perfect position to sustain us and protected from all manner of astrological phenomena that the statistical probability of that just happening, at best is mind bending.

But hey, we don't know and there is no point falling out about it ... We should all appreciate the unique planet we live on and stop destroying it.

Mankind will not live on planet earth for ever, that's a proven fact. But we will have destroyed it long before the sun does in any case.

We are born, we live, we die ... It's a fact and there is little point trying to 'big up' one god over another, it's bullshit..

It's what you do in between born and die that really counts and like Andy says, when its time to go, if you can look back and say you did your best and was respectful and considerate of all things in your time here .....Then that should be all anyone needs.

[Updated on: Thu, 18 July 2013 21:19]

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Re: Are you religious? [message #279780 is a reply to message #279776] Thu, 18 July 2013 23:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
smile Beliefs have no place in any of this - that's just people attempting to force what think they want and need on reality and others.

What we might be doing that truly improves ourselves and our situation and the lot of others is what matters. That's one thing, but the industry that is mainstream institutional religion is quite another. It's a cornerstone of the old game of people feeding off each other. What they teach while having it's origins way back in some fundamental truths has always been distorted so that these are almost entirely buried, and so that what's left is imposed on people. It very carefully designed to keep the elite in power, and to to disempower and use the majority.

We've lots of problems to sort out in the world, but it won't be the guys in the sheets that help that to happen - it'll be people (whatever their seeming background or tradition is) connecting with these common sense truths again, waking up, doing to the work, stepping beyond conditioned ways of thinking, and starting to see stuff for what it is. Then taking responsibility for properly looking after themselves, others, the world and everthing that lives. i.e. the cultivation and application of wisdom and compassion in everyday living.

Dead simple, requires no institutions per se, but requires a steady but evolving view, steady self work and a lot of heart and courage.........

[Updated on: Thu, 18 July 2013 23:40]

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Re: Are you religious? [message #279785 is a reply to message #279780] Fri, 19 July 2013 16:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
Hi Kermit. RollEyes Pardon me if that was a bit of party pooper re. the vote. It's just one view, albeit a fairly widely held one.

To try to put it in persective. Institutional religion is basically about handing a set of rules to people. Don't bother your little heads - just do what we say and you'll be fine. It's on one level actually a rational enough approach when seeking to bring some order to a very highly uneducated and undeveloped people that is unlikely to do the right thing for any higher reason. The trouble is that it's been hijacked/structured instead to keep the institution and their members and network of allies in power, and the punter subservient and in the sh1t - and and has typically been enforced using violence. e.g. the inquisition, or whatever the fundamentalist elements are into these days. It's tightly intertwined in the systems of state power and social hierarchy too.

The problem with authoritarian hierarchies like that getting to define supposed 'good' is that they inevitably end up making it OK for the guys running the gas chamber, the national security apparatus or whatever mechanism of control to say not just that they were only following orders/enforcing the rules, but also that they were doing said 'good'. We like of course to think we're past all that nasty stuff, but we're not - it's just that these days more subtle (often psychological) means are used to control. The heavy duty violence is only brought out in selected cases. (best not to scare/rouse the children so they start to think)

We're (whether we want it or not) past that stage - we're educated and supposedly able to read and think for ourselves, and just in time - because we're faced with major planet/race survival threatening challenges. So why would we continue to behave like sheep? Why throw away our power to live as we wish by out of laziness, loss of hope, trying to get on the bandwagon to become creatures of the system, the conditioned sense that it can't be any different or whatever failing to take up the challenge?

It's in the short term not the soft route - taking responsibility for ourselves requires a lot of courage, and a lot of work.

Most of the ills presently in the world are the result of of self interested people looking after themselves and their circle at the expense of the rest. Not just elites, but also the common man that looks the other way, keeps on doing the wrong thing for short term personal gain and refuses to see any wrong in it. It won't cut it any more. The problem is self propagating, in that the ongoing attempts of all of these interests to justify their own actions combine to create a confusing mess of noise that obscures/suppresses/facilitiates loss of contact with our personal knowing of basic rights and wrongs - or even (unless we set out to get up to speed) awareness of our actions and of the seriousness of the situation.

We're at a point where everything from population, to generalised apathy, to environment, to energy, to ecology, to resources, to messing with our bodies with dangerous drugs and other procedures primarily made for profit, nutritionally deficient/downright toxic/contaminated foods, to climate, to nuclear and weapons of mass destruction, to dominance of banking and other elites to whatever it is that in the 20th century depressed natural health and vitality has brought us to the brink of disaster.

All as a result of small elites gaining control of wealth or key parts of the system and exploiting whatever for personal and selfish gain - and most of the rest ready to do the same if they could swing it.

Escape/the next level of development entails people waking up - each starting to do the right things for the right reasons. Individual wisdom and compassion (natural checks and balances) have to kick in. Not because people are told they should do something, or because they have decided its in their interest to fall in line - but because they genuinely care and feel that way.

The world we will end up with hangs on this - and the possibilities are very nasty or potentially rather wonderful depending on which route we choose...

[Updated on: Fri, 26 July 2013 11:03]

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Re: Are you religious? [message #279789 is a reply to message #279785] Sat, 20 July 2013 01:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gazk is currently offline  Gazk   United Kingdom
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(8) Moto2 GP Racer
The way I see it, life is short. Live it how you see fit. A god isn't required to tell you how to do that.

But that's my take on life. I can usually find much more interesting things to do than worry about religion Thumbs Up
Re: Are you religious? [message #279901 is a reply to message #279789] Fri, 26 July 2013 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SP2 Riley is currently offline  SP2 Riley   United Kingdom
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(19) John Surtees
well im not religious but im all in favor of the church putting maggot firms out of business..

good luck with this, i may even donate to church funds if they do get rid of them
Re: Are you religious? [message #280058 is a reply to message #279901] Sun, 04 August 2013 13:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lloydiecbr is currently offline  lloydiecbr   United Kingdom
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(4) WSS Racer
just a load of crap to control the weak minded
Re: Are you religious? [message #280063 is a reply to message #280058] Sun, 04 August 2013 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
Grin Depends a bit on what's meant by 'weak minded'. The bit that's not so easy is that dumping religion and/or the system requires us to have the b**ls (to be strong minded enough) to each take responsibility for ourselves. That means doing the right thing for the right reasons - because we've managed to figure out that for ourselves that it's ultimately in our interest.

It's arguable that institutional religion contributes little to the greater good, but what if we're not so advanced as we like to think. What if the removal of the threat of 'to hell in a bucket' or more worldly sanctions that few claim to believe make a big difference turn out after all to have been what was holding much in check. Society together in fact.

That the baby gets thrown out with the bath water, and it turns into an even worse free for all than we have already. That strong mindedness in the eye of Joe soap turns out to be some sort of supposedly self interested (it isn't actually cos it inevitably brings misery - even for the guy on the top of the and pile) animalistic rule of the fittest?

[Updated on: Sun, 04 August 2013 17:50]

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Re: Are you religious? [message #280064 is a reply to message #280063] Sun, 04 August 2013 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quazi is currently offline  Quazi   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
My views are my own on this one. smile
Re: Are you religious? [message #280067 is a reply to message #280064] Sun, 04 August 2013 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
I'm not shit stirring Q - it's a very real and highly practical issue.

One big issue with religion (apart from it's being part of the system in many cases) is that it provides a lot of the top cover/system of control that the unscrupulous big interests need to screw the rest of us.

Look at banking for example. It pushes the rules every inch it can get away with to favour itself at the expense of the punter (it's effectively been freed to speculate with other people's money that was given to them for safe keeping), but dives for the law and the widespread fear of protest the moment the same punter shows signs of cutting up stroppy at being screwed over. The religious rules meanwhile tie up said punter - with the threat of hell should he/she step an inch out of line.

Funny isn't it how religion has never clearly spoken out on white collar crime, or the other stuff the elite gets up to...

It's hard not to think that the go to church on a Sunday, and snooze while presuming the system will look after us mentality that institutional religion has played a big part in creating isn't a key enabler of all of this. Yet as above - if we can't handle ourselves then it could be even worse....
Re: Are you religious? [message #280068 is a reply to message #280067] Sun, 04 August 2013 18:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quazi is currently offline  Quazi   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
I know you're not Onda'

My own views are varied whilst being fairly open, I don't have or choose not to have any one particular view on any aspect of religion, religious beliefs, faith call it what you will.

I think it does though boil down to some basic human instincts and not the wrapping of the presentation.
Re: Are you religious? [message #280071 is a reply to message #280068] Sun, 04 August 2013 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gone2 is currently offline  gone2   Netherlands
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(15) Kenny Roberts
Quazi wrote on Sun, 04 August 2013 19:49

I think it does though boil down to some basic human instincts .


Spot on. And I'll go you one further, how far do you continue boiling? Cos if you get past the surface human stuff, mostly concerned with how the individual will get his food tomorrow, or will survive the various life threatening things, you get to "How do I fit in with the community, where am I on the pecking order?" and then if you keep on boiling it down, you get to "WTF am I here for? WTF AM I actually? Am I my thoughts? Is that me? Or am I the quietly observing thing in the background, that whispers quietly in my ear to chill out when I'm about to go off on one?

Religions start off trying to answer these types of questions, and then get rapidly hijacked by the low-lifes who want to control everyone else. It all starts off as philosophy, but then degrades into religion. Appealing to those who feel the need to belong to the big club. Not for nothing is it labelled the opiate of the masses.
Re: Are you religious? [message #280073 is a reply to message #280068] Sun, 04 August 2013 20:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
smile I'm way off any maintream view Q - so don't mind my ramblings.

Faith, belief and religion are very confused concepts. Stuff that has had its meaning twisted to suit the interests of an elite keen to keep the punters down. There are instincts, but it's very posible for most of us to rise above them. We're all capable of deep change - of developing our view. It's not a case of being stuck with some birthright, some fixed set of perceptions - but we do have to make the effort. We start from where we are...

For sure it's the realities rather than the packaging that make the difference.

Why is it that institutional religion so rarely has done anything very much to reduce suffering and hardship? Maybe that's the acid test for any set of beliefs. Does it serve us, does it serve the greater good?

We've had milennia of insane nutters shouting 'now do you believe' as the flames climbed higher, or as they cranked another turn on to the rack. Or murdered for the 'faith'. But believing something because somebody told you it's true (or worse still threatened you'd suffer consequences if you didn't) isn't likely to result in a very high confidence level or mean its much use in reality - although there's plenty that will for their own reasons (e.g. can't be arsed engaging in the issue - but it's handy and it suits to borrow a socially acceptable set of clothes) do so. Probably not very re-assuring as the lights start to go down though.

Yet it's possible by carefully observing and learning from life to build a genuinely pretty high level of confidence in what is often regarded as pretty intangible stuff. Maybe by starting with some reading, and from that lightly adopting a continuously evolving set of guidelines (not fixed rules) to live by. Which with a bit of luck (don't underestimate our own common sense wisdom in these things) experience will eventually show actually do make for less trouble and suffering in life. Maybe moving on to doing some work on the mind to calm it down - which maybe makes room for a little joy to creep in, and as a result allows some empathy leading to some genuine care for our fellow human.

Perhaps we may even tumble to the realisation that life is actually pretty benign provided we don't take the piss/bring trouble on ourselves/drive minds frantic and half mad by becoming obsessed with trying to control everything and get ahead at the expense of everybody/everything else. Maybe some life events will eventually show to a pretty high level of certainty that we don't have to do it all ourselves, and don't have to struggle for everything - that if we can drop into the groove that life starts to come to us....

Yet there's never any guarantee other than perhaps that eventually we all get our ticket out of here - even if it's probably only for a while. A famous Zen master centuries ago was asked by a keen young chap - 'tell me o master, what happens when we die?' 'How the f**k should i know, i'm not dead yet' was the stern reply....

[Updated on: Sun, 04 August 2013 20:42]

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Re: Are you religious? [message #280078 is a reply to message #279748] Mon, 05 August 2013 00:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DrMartin is currently offline  DrMartin   United Kingdom
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(18) Geoff Duke
Sardines.


Re: Are you religious? [message #280091 is a reply to message #280078] Tue, 06 August 2013 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quazi is currently offline  Quazi   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
DrMartin wrote on Mon, 05 August 2013 00:01
Sardines.




In tomato sauce. smile
Re: Are you religious? [message #280095 is a reply to message #280091] Tue, 06 August 2013 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ondablade   Ireland
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(15) Kenny Roberts
Free will means sardines (even with tomato sauce) are perfectly valid choice....
Re: Are you religious? [message #280096 is a reply to message #280095] Tue, 06 August 2013 18:43 Go to previous message
DrMartin is currently offline  DrMartin   United Kingdom
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(18) Geoff Duke
Sorry, I meant Existential Nihilism. I always get those two confused ... but then it doesn't really matter does it? I mean, they are not mutually exclusive in my book.

I haven't written a book by the way; it's just a figure of speech Wink

The sun came out this afternoon. It was very pleasant. I took photographs of common blue Damselflies 'at it'. They haven't come out as sharp as I had hoped but they're ok.





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