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Slaz's New PC [message #299978] Sat, 01 December 2018 11:01 Go to next message
VTRsp2 is currently offline  VTRsp2   United Kingdom
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(8) Moto2 GP Racer
A question for the PC experts Grin

I've been using Firefox for years now & on the whole am quite happy with it, but I do think it's starting to use quite a bit of resources to run.....PC fan increases in speed when running compared to other programs & looking at the processes tab in Task Manager there's 7 instances of it under the Firefox 'App'with varying memory alocations totalling around 650mb.
A quick comparison with MS Edge is showing 8 processes with a total memory of around 110mb (both with this site open as a direct/similar comparison).

Am just wondering what everyone else is using & thought's of other browsers eg MS Edge, Google Chrome etc think


Notes for Ref:-
PC is around 9 yrs old, Running Windows 10 Home 64bit Version 1803.
Intel Q8300 2.5Ghz processor.
4GB Ram (3.24GB useable).

[Updated on: Mon, 17 December 2018 16:02] by Moderator

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Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299979 is a reply to message #299978] Sat, 01 December 2018 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently online  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
There's definetely something wrong with your copy of Firefox because it's using a full third more RAM than mine is using. think

What kind of add-ons are you running?
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299981 is a reply to message #299979] Sat, 01 December 2018 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
VTRsp2 is currently offline  VTRsp2   United Kingdom
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(8) Moto2 GP Racer
Kakugo wrote on Sat, 01 December 2018 12:11
There's definetely something wrong with your copy of Firefox because it's using a full third more RAM than mine is using. think

What kind of add-ons are you running?
I try to keep to a minimum & am not bothered with fancy/gimmicky stuff as are generally a waste of time & unneseccarily add to the system load.

Add ons currently running:-

Adblock Plus
Avast Online Security
Facebook Container
Windscribe VPN

[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2018 18:10]

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Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299982 is a reply to message #299978] Sat, 01 December 2018 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently online  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
Not exactly sure it makes a difference with Firefox, but Win10 64bit can give smaller amounts of RAM a hard time when running certain programs.
Have you considered adding more RAM? think
8GB won't break the bank and will give your PC an instant extra boost.
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299983 is a reply to message #299982] Sat, 01 December 2018 21:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
Just checked mine, I'm using 567MB with just one tab (this site) open. I have similar addons to you with Windsribe (usually not active but there), ABP, ebay and a new one I discovered last week called "I don't care about cookies" that gets rid of most of those annoying post GDPR cookie warnings that make visiting new sites a pain.

Lots of people love Chrome but I'm not one of them. I do have a copy on my work PC for use on one site and it does seem quick but then again I don't have addons on it (perhaps APB) and generally speaking I don't trust Google with my data so while I guess if your in private/igcogneto mode it doesn't send anything to google, I'm not so sure in normal mode as google is worth what it is partly as it knows a lot about all sorts Wink

FF is pretty much open source therefore in my eyes without delving too deeply, a lot more trustworthy.

Agree with K, you have 64bit Windows so another 4GB or even 8GB would help things along nicely. Buy on ebay (used or new) as its an older pc so there should be plenty of people selling 4Gb or 8GB modules given its probably DDR2 or DDR3 memory of a certain speed and out of fashion now given they're onto DDR4. I bought 128GB (16x8GB modules) of HP high spec but used server memory modules a few weeks ago for £99 delivered, its made a massive difference to the oldish servers we have at work two of which have gone from 24GB and 20Gb to 64GB each (they run virtual servers so the more the better)

If your not sure what memory you have or what slots are full then I recommend CPU-Z https://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html (the ZIP, extract and run without installing version is fine). As it has 2 tabs regarding memory, one total memory and speed its currently running at (this not so useful as memory speed fluctuates with CPU speed) and a SPD tab with that tells you exact speed, model, make of each memory module you have fitted in each of #1 to #4 slots (or 1# and #2 slot on mine as i have a tiny ITX motherboard)

in short, stick with FF, don't be a sheep and get Chrome although Edge is fast, its support for addons I think is still limited and its a little too quirky for me but then I am set in my ways with FF

[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2018 21:15]

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Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299984 is a reply to message #299983] Sat, 01 December 2018 21:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
on FF if you goto HELP -> RESTART with ADDONS DISABLED then choose SAFE MODE on restart you'll get a better view of what FF uses. I've just done that and on this same single page as before I'm now only using 177MB so my addons must be ~300MB worth and my fault for liking them not FF's Grin

I do have 16GB ram so tend not to worry about memory use too much

[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2018 21:19]

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Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299986 is a reply to message #299983] Sat, 01 December 2018 21:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slaz is currently offline  slaz   United Kingdom
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(21) Valentino Rossi
Ok i know its hard to believe,but i have'nt a clue what anyone is on about,
so in laymans terms,more ram,bigger this and faster that,32/64 bits,
But my Q is, what about the broadband speed that's sent through
your front door,surely thats in the mix when it comes to the speed
of the PC think
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299988 is a reply to message #299986] Sat, 01 December 2018 22:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
Yes and no Slaz, I doubt many people have less than about 4Mbit download speed these days (except those in very rural places) and 4mbit is enough for virtually all websites especially if you run an adblocker that effectly cuts the crap your PC downloads and diaplays on screen by varying amounts (Crash.net anyone?)

I'll try tackle them concisely (not always easy for me) in order

1) 32/64bit - Until ~2005/2010 64bit operating systems didn't matter, no normal person with a normal PC could afford more than 4GB of memory. Since Vista, Windows 7, 8 and now 10 came along they've all been available in 64 bit versions and the reason is simple, if you want to stick more than 4GB memory in your PC or MAC, its CPU has to be 64bit (don't worry about this though as virtually all CPUs have been 64bit for >10 years) and the operating system installed has to be 64bit although like in your PC, you can run a 32bit operating system on 64bit CPU with no issues aside from the memory limit. Its about number of memory locations it can address and some maths

Al digital computers 1970s 8bit, 16bit (Windows 95), then 32bit (Windows XP+) use 1's and 0's to do stuff and so store 'stuff' using this binary system. Maths tells us that 2 to the power 32 equals 4,294,967,295 bit = 4 billion addresss = 4GB. They phiscially don't have the capacity to refer to a memory location of 4 billion +1. 64bit can handle many more memory locations as 2 to the power 64 is a very large number I'm not even going to calculate but its something like 64 trillion

So while 64bit CPU is needed (you've got that), if you stick a 32bit Windows or Linux on it, its stuck with the same issue, it can't address more than 4 billions individual memory 'bit' locations so will ignore it even if you stick another 4GB memory into the PC.

2) Memory is fast at least compared to traditional spinning hard disks and faster than SSD (solid state disks) which are somewhere in between. The more stuff (programs, data, website images etc) you have already stored in memory, the faster they can be retreived.

eg Boot your PC, wait for Windows to settle down (disk light stops flickering). Open up something like Firefox or Word and time how long it takes to open...lets say 10 secs on a PC with normal Hard disk. Close Firefox/Word, then reopen it....this time it takes perhaps 1 or 2 seconds? Thats due to the programs files still being held by Windows in fast memory and so it they need to be loaded from the disk again.

BUT if you open lots of programs (Windows itself counts and will use approx 1GB ram itself), like Word, Firefox, Excel, Movie maker etc, then close Word, go back to Movie maker, work a bit then reopen Word, on a PC with less memory (eg 4GB) odds are Windows had to remove the previously loaded Word from fast memory as it was running low on memory for Windows, MM etc and reopening it will possibly take 10 seconds again as it has to re-load the files from the slower disk. If you had 8GB memory, Windows can hold onto previously closed things longer before having to dispense with them to use the memory for something else that active.

More memory = faster loading programs although there's a natural limit and law of diminishing returns. 8GB is healthy amount for todays Windows and programs, 16GB is nice to have but unless your a hard core gamer with the latest title, rarely will windows use all of that

A screenshot of my PCs Task Manager -> Performance tab (its slighty different on Windows 7) showing I'm using 5.2GB out of available 16GB. This is with FF, Outlook and A few Windows open. If you look at this on your PC when you have your typical programs open and browsing etc and see if the total memory > than actual memory. If it is, then Windows is swapping some stuff it would otherwise prefer to keep in memory to disk (thats your pagefile) and more memory would give a noticable gain in terms of how quickly programs open or switch including loading Windows itself.
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=22368&private=0

If you look bottom right, you see L1, L2 & L3 memory. This is tiny but ultra fast memory on the CPU (processor) itself that it uses to cache frequenty accessed instructions to help it do its stuff quicker. You can't change that memory (except by getting a newer CPU) but its another layer demonstrating that much of performance is down to memory, how fast is it and how much of it you got.

See I can be concise RollEyes

[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2018 22:29]

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Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299990 is a reply to message #299988] Sat, 01 December 2018 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slaz is currently offline  slaz   United Kingdom
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(21) Valentino Rossi
Jeeezzz Rrrrrsssss brother,you cant half type,really interesting read.(which i dont normally do)
Obviously i got some but not all,the lingo,but i take your point,so how do i check the SSD,we
fitted a few years back

/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=22369&private=0

[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2018 22:47]

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Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299991 is a reply to message #299990] Sat, 01 December 2018 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slaz is currently offline  slaz   United Kingdom
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(21) Valentino Rossi
Here's another,,,,,,,,,,,,
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=22370&private=0
  • Attachment: OS.jpg
    (Size: 55.36KB, Downloaded 131 times)
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299992 is a reply to message #299991] Sat, 01 December 2018 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
Your intel Core 2 Duo is definetly 64bit and effectivly two CPUs so thats good
You have 4GB memory fitted (probably 2x2GB memory sticks...just a guess) but only 2.99GB usable as 1GB is used or unsable either

a) due to a plugin Graphics card which if fitted, will have its own 1GB memory but as its memory has to be addressed by the CPU, the CPU can't address the final 1GB of 4GB
b) on board graphics (usually part of the CPU). This ofte sets aside memory (1GB in your case) to do the graphics stuff

Your Task Manager shows your 3060MB (3GB) memory and only using 62% oif that in anger which is quite good but suspect your not running many programs, eg perhaps just browser and image program. You only have 0.25GB (246MB) free so not much leeway so another open program would probably see that drop (it'll never reach zero) and at that point Windows will start offloading some of the least active program to your pagefile even if that program is still running. As you have a SSD, I'd guess the pagefile is on the SSD so that helps negate the performance hit as SSD quite fast compared to an old style hard disk.

Easiest way to check how much space you have left on your SSD is to open Computer icon and set to detailed view as below.

For more info, right-click the SSD (it will most likley be C: drive) and choose Properties to see more details including option to run DISK CLEANUP is its getting low on space (<20% free)

/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=22371&private=0

[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2018 23:36]

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Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299993 is a reply to message #299992] Sun, 02 December 2018 12:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
VTRsp2 is currently offline  VTRsp2   United Kingdom
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(8) Moto2 GP Racer
Thanks for the info guys Thumbs Up

This morning with this page open only & Outlook running I'm getting 660mb, if I restart with add ons disabled I get 160mb, so there's a similarity in the comparison which is good to know Thumbs Up
Interestingly if I disable windscribe it drops to 460mb (before it was 'there' in the corner but inactive), so would appear it takes a fair chunk just 'hanging around' in the background think

Like others I'm not that trusting of Google & my data so will probably stick with FF Grin

As for memory, according to the performance tab of task manager it's showing as running at around 75% (2.4/3.2GB) & would appear I've got DIMM memory in 2 of 2 slots. So without taking the lid off am guessing the options are limted & I'll have to swap for a larger size module than add to the existing, but I'll check with CPU-Z too.

One thing I do notice is that the machine takes quite a while to settle down on start up & the hard disk light can be on constantly for quite a while, have gone through the programs that I don't use that often & stopped them from being active in the background/until I want to use them, such as iTunes, WD Backup (portable HD that I backup to occasionally) etc but doesn't seem to have made that much difference Neutral
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299994 is a reply to message #299993] Sun, 02 December 2018 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slaz is currently offline  slaz   United Kingdom
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(21) Valentino Rossi
VTRsp2,a quick apology,it looks like i highjacked your post,
i did'nt mean too,sorry Baza
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299995 is a reply to message #299994] Sun, 02 December 2018 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slaz is currently offline  slaz   United Kingdom
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(21) Valentino Rossi
/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=22372&private=0 think
  • Attachment: SSD.jpg
    (Size: 126.48KB, Downloaded 111 times)
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299996 is a reply to message #299993] Sun, 02 December 2018 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently online  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
VTRsp2 wrote on Sun, 02 December 2018 13:58
Thanks for the info guys Thumbs Up

This morning with this page open only & Outlook running I'm getting 660mb, if I restart with add ons disabled I get 160mb, so there's a similarity in the comparison which is good to know Thumbs Up
Interestingly if I disable windscribe it drops to 460mb (before it was 'there' in the corner but inactive), so would appear it takes a fair chunk just 'hanging around' in the background think

Like others I'm not that trusting of Google & my data so will probably stick with FF Grin

As for memory, according to the performance tab of task manager it's showing as running at around 75% (2.4/3.2GB) & would appear I've got DIMM memory in 2 of 2 slots. So without taking the lid off am guessing the options are limted & I'll have to swap for a larger size module than add to the existing, but I'll check with CPU-Z too.

One thing I do notice is that the machine takes quite a while to settle down on start up & the hard disk light can be on constantly for quite a while, have gone through the programs that I don't use that often & stopped them from being active in the background/until I want to use them, such as iTunes, WD Backup (portable HD that I backup to occasionally) etc but doesn't seem to have made that much difference Neutral
One stick of brand new DDR3 4GB RAM is about €27 and the same in DDR4 is €37. 8GB would see an instant jump in capability.
You could also opt for 16GB RAM like I did, but given the age of your PC it may not make much financial sense.

Which leads me to the point: your PC has marginal performances for running Win10 64bit and most modern programs, even if not graphic-intensive.
And if you have a traditional hard disk (HDD) as opposed to a solid state one (SSD) it surely isn't helping: an SSD is so much faster than HDD and in any modern computer should be considered at very least to install the operating system and the most frequently used programs.
To cut a long story, your PC is running out of performances to run modern programs. You may buy yourself some time by adding RAM, perhaps adding another hard disk if you are running short on capacity, and keeping it in good shape by frequently cleaning the hard disk(s), defragmenting, checking for errors etc but sooner or later the programs you run will outpace your hardware. Confused

I know the feeling: the motherboard on my home PC has been sending me warnings for a while, but like Hell I am going to buy one right now with all the expenses I've had this year!
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299998 is a reply to message #299996] Sun, 02 December 2018 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slaz is currently offline  slaz   United Kingdom
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(21) Valentino Rossi
"eg Boot your PC, wait for Windows to settle down (disk light stops flickering). Open up something like Firefox or Word and time how long it takes to open...lets say 10 secs on a PC with normal Hard disk. Close Firefox/Word, then reopen it....this time it takes perhaps 1 or 2 seconds? Thats due to the programs files still being held by Windows in fast memory and so it they need to be loaded from the disk again."

First go 31.36 sec

Second go 26.58 secs

think
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #299999 is a reply to message #299994] Mon, 03 December 2018 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
VTRsp2 is currently offline  VTRsp2   United Kingdom
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(8) Moto2 GP Racer
slaz wrote on Sun, 02 December 2018 17:00
VTRsp2,a quick apology,it looks like i highjacked your post,
i did'nt mean too,sorry Baza
No need Slaz, it's all relevant Thumbs Up
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #300000 is a reply to message #299996] Mon, 03 December 2018 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
VTRsp2 is currently offline  VTRsp2   United Kingdom
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Kakugo wrote on Sun, 02 December 2018 20:04
VTRsp2 wrote on Sun, 02 December 2018 13:58
Thanks for the info guys Thumbs Up

This morning with this page open only & Outlook running I'm getting 660mb, if I restart with add ons disabled I get 160mb, so there's a similarity in the comparison which is good to know Thumbs Up
Interestingly if I disable windscribe it drops to 460mb (before it was 'there' in the corner but inactive), so would appear it takes a fair chunk just 'hanging around' in the background think

Like others I'm not that trusting of Google & my data so will probably stick with FF Grin

As for memory, according to the performance tab of task manager it's showing as running at around 75% (2.4/3.2GB) & would appear I've got DIMM memory in 2 of 2 slots. So without taking the lid off am guessing the options are limted & I'll have to swap for a larger size module than add to the existing, but I'll check with CPU-Z too.

One thing I do notice is that the machine takes quite a while to settle down on start up & the hard disk light can be on constantly for quite a while, have gone through the programs that I don't use that often & stopped them from being active in the background/until I want to use them, such as iTunes, WD Backup (portable HD that I backup to occasionally) etc but doesn't seem to have made that much difference Neutral
One stick of brand new DDR3 4GB RAM is about €27 and the same in DDR4 is €37. 8GB would see an instant jump in capability.
You could also opt for 16GB RAM like I did, but given the age of your PC it may not make much financial sense.

Which leads me to the point: your PC has marginal performances for running Win10 64bit and most modern programs, even if not graphic-intensive.
And if you have a traditional hard disk (HDD) as opposed to a solid state one (SSD) it surely isn't helping: an SSD is so much faster than HDD and in any modern computer should be considered at very least to install the operating system and the most frequently used programs.
To cut a long story, your PC is running out of performances to run modern programs. You may buy yourself some time by adding RAM, perhaps adding another hard disk if you are running short on capacity, and keeping it in good shape by frequently cleaning the hard disk(s), defragmenting, checking for errors etc but sooner or later the programs you run will outpace your hardware. Confused

I know the feeling: the motherboard on my home PC has been sending me warnings for a while, but like Hell I am going to buy one right now with all the expenses I've had this year!
Agree with all you say Kakugo & I've been considering biting the bullet & buying a new machine for a while now think

HDD is about 2/3rds full & I run ccleaner quite regularly too to try & keep things tidy, but I guess like all tech it eventually gets overtaken by progress Confused
However, as I only really use it these days for surfing the internet, e-mails etc & not anything really processor/memory hungry like video/photo editing, I'll probably look into upgrading the memory & run it a little longer.
Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #300001 is a reply to message #299998] Mon, 03 December 2018 20:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kermit is currently offline  Kermit   United Kingdom
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(22) Giacomo Agostini
slaz wrote on Sun, 02 December 2018 21:11
"eg Boot your PC, wait for Windows to settle down (disk light stops flickering). Open up something like Firefox or Word and time how long it takes to open...lets say 10 secs on a PC with normal Hard disk. Close Firefox/Word, then reopen it....this time it takes perhaps 1 or 2 seconds? Thats due to the programs files still being held by Windows in fast memory and so it they need to be loaded from the disk again."

First go 31.36 sec

Second go 26.58 secs

think
Perhaps I was thinking of my PC Slaz Grin I suspect given yours is marginal on memory, Windows unloads FF/Word etc from the 4GB of memory quicker than it would do if you had 8GB memory.

VTR, as Kak says, your PC like Slaz's is perhaps is a little marginal on memory although thats not to say it doesn't do the job well enough given what you use it for and you can always go make a brew while Windows loads and settles down. It might however be worth considering an SSD. I have a small laptop that had a 320GB HD fitted till last week. It performed ok, was running a clean install of Windows 10 but forked out £20 for this WD SSD https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/292662386944 and its transformed its performanc from ok to very nippy and only 4GB fitted too. It boots in under 10 seconds and loads things browser etc a lot quicker. That said, I don't store much on it (its only for general browsing etc) so the 120GB SSD is more than big enough. For a PC with lots of programs installed, these days I'd recommend a 256GB+ SSD if you have lots of photos, music, videos etc then set the old HD as a data drive where you relocate C:\Users to D:\Users.

I understand the reluctance to upgrade, depsite my PC being more than adequate (its about 3 years old now), I do find myself looking at motherboards with M2 slots for SSD's as unlike SATA SSD's these aren't limited to 550MB read/write speeds so get speeds upto 2000-3000MB/sec and the disks are pretty much about the size of a memory (Ram) stick. Then I look and see I'd need a new CPU for these more modern motherboards, new ram and its looking like £400 or so to get similar spec to current cpu & amount of ram plus the cost of the new motherboard before I even look at changing SATA SSDs to M2 SSD's so I forget about it Grin

[Updated on: Mon, 03 December 2018 20:36]

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Re: Which Internet Browser??? [message #300003 is a reply to message #300001] Wed, 05 December 2018 21:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
slaz is currently offline  slaz   United Kingdom
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(21) Valentino Rossi
Your intel Core 2 Duo is definetly 64bit and effectivly two CPUs so thats good

So if i'm downloading,say Movie Maker or other programs,would i go for the 32 or the 64bit version think

And finally,whats your verdict on mine and VTRs dilemma

Do we/i,stay as we are,or shoot off 1st,January to Curry's think
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