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charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299407] Fri, 25 May 2018 00:56 Go to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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bought a 00 f4 from another state really cheap and now I know why... got home and got it cleaned up, starts and runs great until it gets hot, about the time the fan kicks on so ride below 6-7k on the highway and youre all good but who can do that with a cbr? the bike will die and the battery will read 12.4 volts. let the bike sit for about 30 minutes and the battery will now read 12.9 volts and will be able to start the bike no problem. I was told the bike is draining the battery and the battery reserve is whats restoring it while sitting? either way bike is not charging. replaced stator. 40v between each lead and .9 ohms between each lead. nothing to ground. still not charging.. well when bike is first started (cold) i will get 14.5 volts at idle. as bike warms up voltage decreases to about 13.2 at any rpm. replaced R&R. same thing, charges while cold but stops while hot which is symptom of a bad stator but not only did I just replace it but all tests come back clear hot or cold and unplugged. replaced battery, everything still the same. isnt there something supposed to tell the stator what to output? or is it always a constant. with the stator plugged into R&R I only get 11v across any yellow wire is this normal? and when I rev the bike the voltage drops to about 7v AC across yellows.

this is now the 4th forums ive posted this on. it will get like 300 views but only 1 or 2 people will reply and its always the same thing, "you have a bad stator" well i understand I could have received a bad stator but also get good readings and it be bad as well?!
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299409 is a reply to message #299407] Fri, 25 May 2018 11:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently offline  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
Hi and welcome.

0.9 ohm is awfully close to service limit, especially if you took the reading with a cold engine and at normal or even cool room temperature: resistance in a conductor (such as the copper wire used in your alternator) increases with temperature.
This explains why you see a much higher charging voltage at idle, before the generator really starts to work and hence to heat up.
There isn't really much that can go wrong with install, but just to be sure I'd take off the cover and check everything is fine under there.

I don't know what stator you got: going by your bike's age I'd say either used or aftermarket. think
Most aftermarket electric components are of questionable quality as their price says: used Honda alternators generally go at least 20% the usual no-name aftermarket units and if you have ever bought a Denso or Shindengen aftermarket alternator you know price isn't too far from OE. Confused
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299410 is a reply to message #299409] Fri, 25 May 2018 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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its 0.9 ohms even when hot though, I understand thats close but the ohms dont change once hot. im going to try something new today, I noticed last night. EST~ that once the bike was hot I had 13.2 volts at the battery where I have been testing it but 14 even right off the R&R. (cooling fan was running it the voltage drops .4-5 volts when its running) and the only thing between the R&R and the battery is the starter solenoid. the red/white wire goes through it before going back to the battery. could something be happening there? so im going to try running it straight back to the battery with no pit stops and see if that changes anything.
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299411 is a reply to message #299410] Fri, 25 May 2018 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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Well that didn't work....i honestly don't think it was the stator to begin with
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299420 is a reply to message #299407] Sat, 26 May 2018 10:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently offline  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
The starter solenoid doesn't affect charging: it merely shares its housing with the 30A main fuse whose sole scope should be to protect the battery from surging due to a reg/rec malfunction... in theory.
In practice as too many found out that fuse is as useful as a monkey in the sperm bank.

The charging system on those bikes is actually pretty simple: it's not electronically controlled as on present ones. You basically have the alternator running into the reg/rec and the reg/rec feeding the battery through that fused connection and that's about it. So the problem must be in one of those four components.
If you feel you have exhausted all avenues when it comes to the alternator and you installed a new reg/rec (was the alternator connection sound? I've seen a few burned pretty badly), it's time to move on to the fused connection and the battery.

You can put a new 30A fuse for starters. Sometimes the fuse can develop a hairline crack (invisible to the naked eye) and/or the connections can become covered in oxide. You can just swap over one from a car but those fuses cost cents. I've seen it happen only once, and on a Peugeot ( Laugh ), but it's enough to make you wonder what you have been doing wrong all along.
Next up are the battery terminals and their wiring. I have spent too much time diagnosing one not to suggest at least looking into them.

Finally the battery. They can cause all sort of mischief and even Yuasa's can be defective out of the box or go haywire after eight months... guess how I know?
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299421 is a reply to message #299420] Sat, 26 May 2018 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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I ran a split right off the R&R to the battery and nothing changed. I'm back to thinking its a bad stator so I ordered another. I just dont understand that even hot I'm still getting good numbers from the stator.
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299428 is a reply to message #299421] Mon, 28 May 2018 13:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently offline  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
Here2Ride wrote on Sat, 26 May 2018 20:16
I ran a split right off the R&R to the battery and nothing changed. I'm back to thinking its a bad stator so I ordered another. I just dont understand that even hot I'm still getting good numbers from the stator.
At this point it could be one of two things.

Either the generator is not putting out enough current (measured in ampere) or there's some extra parasitic drain in the charging system.

According to Honda an F4 generator puts out 343W at 5000rpm. So if you have 40V like you said, you should get about 8.5A at 5000rpm. Remember to set the multimeter to DC, as the current gets converted to AC in the reg/rec. Wink
That's the reason old tractors had both voltmeters and ammeters to keep the charging system under control. Wink

Ironically enough monitoring parasitic drain on those older bikes is harder than on present ones because Honda only started including parasitic drain values in literature after 2008. On most fuel injected bikes without CAN- or LIN-Bus communication protocols parasitic drain is usually around 2.5A without an alarm but, again, that's a poor measure for older bikes. think
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299491 is a reply to message #299428] Wed, 06 June 2018 22:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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its been awhile since ive responded because I havnt been around but here is the latest. either the stator isnt putting out enough ampers or there is a parasitic drain. battery measuring 12.92 volts with key off. start the bike and idling around 1500 rpms and the volts will jump around 13.8 and 14.3 volts. anywhere above 2k rpms and I get a steady 14.4 volts if I let the bike sit idle for say 15 minutes, the voltage will still read around 14 volts but as soon as I kill the engine it drops to 12.5 key off and will take about 3 minutes for it to climb back up to 12.9-13 im not an electrician but this makes me think im getting the right amount of volts but not amps. I need to get a dc amp meter and test it.
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299511 is a reply to message #299491] Fri, 08 June 2018 02:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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Also I want to verify how to test the stator. ive been testing the stator with it disconnecteded from the R&R and I will get 40+ volts between any of the yellows. but i noticed today when I checked between the yellows with it connected to the R&R I only get 10 volts. is it supposed to drop this much with it connected?
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299512 is a reply to message #299407] Fri, 08 June 2018 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently offline  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
Motorcycle stators have an electric potential difference of anything between 12V and 50V DC according to rotation speed and ambient conditions. This extreme variation in potential is the reason why we have regulators and not just rectifiers and why voltage straight from the generator is rarely if ever used. In the rare cases when the reading is needed, the generator is usually run using an external electrical source, most often a battery charger with "power supply" function.

One thing that crept into my mind. Are you absolutely sure the bike runs a stock flywheel? There are plenty of lightweight flywheels out there, and not all of them are designed to go hand in hand with the stock generator on an ordinary street bike. think
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299514 is a reply to message #299512] Sat, 09 June 2018 21:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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not sure about the fly wheel but I have found new information. my old stator was earthed. anyone of 3 yellows had ground contact which is why it was replaced. me being cheap I replaced it with the cheapest one I could find on ebay. the new one is the one I have been having trouble with. come to find out it also is "earthed" when its hot. so its giving me good numbers when first started but i get low 13s because of it being earthed, I wish I checked this sooner... I guess I was just assuming it being new it had to be something else. So I contacted that ebay seller and they sent me another one free of charge which I installed last night. all day today the bike was running fine and giving me 14.5 volts up until the point I got caught in traffic and the bike got 3/4s hot (what is the average OP range on the F4?) the bike started to stutter so I checked the voltage and I was only getting 13 volts even while revving. so I checked those 3 yellows and once again they were earthed while hot so im guessing them being earthed is sapping voltage? so that brings me to is it a shit stator and I should just buy a known name one or is something wrong with my flywheel or somthing else once hot is grounding out the stator?
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299515 is a reply to message #299514] Sun, 10 June 2018 03:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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any way to measure battery draw while the bike is running so I can see if its different cold/hot. Now im starting to think there is nothing wrong with charging system its just unable to keep up with whatever is causing a draw while its hot. like a dead short or something. does that sound plausible?
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299516 is a reply to message #299407] Mon, 11 June 2018 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently offline  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
Parasitic drain is always measured with a non running electrical system as it requires disconnecting the negative battery pole. I dropped by the old Honda dealer I bought my CB from on Saturday to buy some chemicals and asked their head of maintenance about parasitic draw on those bikes and he said carb-fueled sportsbikes from the period should have 0.1mA tops while FI ones should have 2mA tops. Extras such as an alarm (even when turned off) will significantly increase this drain).

Regarding the alternator now... I remember back in the days when Honda was peddling truly dodgy generators all sorts of aftermarket ones were cropping up. A common problem was they put out significantly less power than OE: 20% less power was common. As power is measured by voltage * amperage something had to give.
Plenty of ruined charging systems due to these aftermarket products, with the typical chain of events being alternator voltage surging, frying the already weakened regulator, bike running on battery only for too long thus deep descharging it and end result being alternator + reg/rec + battery. I've personally seen a grand and a half bill for a VFR fixed using OE parts.

To get back to parasitic drain and shorts, the typical place where it happens on those bikes are the largest connectors, but on other brands I've also seen extra draw due to faulty ignition components (a massive headache to trace them down) and even defective fuses. An even bigger headache. Doh
But the cake was taken by battery terminal with a very light crack in it. Never seen anything like it and I hope to never see it again. No Finger
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299517 is a reply to message #299516] Tue, 12 June 2018 04:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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my biggest confusion over all is that even after it stops charging I still get an easy 40+volts across all 3 phases. .7 ohms across all 3 phases. and with the stator disconnected nothing is grounded. so that is a good stator test right? so then why is my voltage dropping as low as 13 volts after running for 30 minutes. and at this point ive actually ran a wire directly from R&R positive and negative to the battery to avoid any corroded or lose connections. so my question then is can I have a stator giving me good tests results but still somehow be bad?
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299518 is a reply to message #299407] Wed, 13 June 2018 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently offline  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
I am not sure I follow you here... think

Generally speaking when troubleshooting the charging system the alternator/stator is checked for resistance and for shorts*. This is the so called "static test".
Next up is checking the regulator/rectifier. Usually the first thing we check is voltage at the battery with the engine running. Without fault if there's something wrong that is due to one of two conditions: either a short/poor connection such as can happen in the pickup coil on some ignition systems (not the one on your bike, but you get the idea) or a regulator/rectifier on its way out. This is the so called "dynamic test".
Shorts and poor connections can usually be ruled out with a through visual inspection and by cleaning the connectors if they look dirty, but most often the problem is the regulator/rectifier.
I'd like to have a look at that bike in person because that charging system is not complicated by any means and there must be something that has been overlooked so far.


*You can check for shorts merely by checking for continuity between each of the three stator coils and earth. All three circuits should be open on a working generator.
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299536 is a reply to message #299518] Wed, 20 June 2018 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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bike cold, 3k rpms 60volts across any 3 yellows, no shorts to ground and .7 ohms across and 3 yellows. and ill have 14.4v at battery <--- this is all true even after bikes temp gauge has reached 80% except for the 14.4v at battery it will now be 13.1
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299542 is a reply to message #299407] Wed, 20 June 2018 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently offline  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
If you see a consistent voltage drop at battery terminals when the bike heats up, the problem is most likely the reg/rec.
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299548 is a reply to message #299542] Thu, 21 June 2018 01:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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do you know where the oil pressure port is on the 2000 f4? or do you check from the sensor?
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299550 is a reply to message #299548] Thu, 21 June 2018 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kakugo is currently offline  Kakugo   Italy
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(18) Geoff Duke
Here2Ride wrote on Thu, 21 June 2018 02:28
do you know where the oil pressure port is on the 2000 f4? or do you check from the sensor?
What, do you mean the oil pressure switch? It's located on the top of the crankase. Look underneath the carburetor ports , a little offset to the right when watching to the front of the bike. It's usually left alone unless the light starts acting strangely.
If you mean the line used for oil pressure inspection it's the large bolt underneath the right side clutch cover. Honestly the only Honda engines I've ever heard that needed the oil pressure checked (very very occasionally) are first series 52° twins, and that's just because the chains used to drive the oil pump had a nasty tendency of stretching. think
Re: charging issues, has to be someone who knows something [message #299552 is a reply to message #299550] Thu, 21 June 2018 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Here2Ride is currently offline  Here2Ride   United States
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okay, I thought that plug on the right side was it but its a very fine thread and none of the adapters I have fit it. connecting to the oil switch then running the bike seems like a b*tch so can I buy the bushing that goes into the port on the right side? if so do you know from where?. when my bike is hot like 80% gauge the oil light flickers at idle. ive read thats from a bad oil pump. the oil is thinner and pump cant push it because clearance is probably to much. if you rev the bike up or when the bike is cold or warm everything is fine so maybe also im putting the wrong oil in it?
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